• Jafar, Shakir och Allahs existens

    En diskussion mellan Imam Jafar al Sadiq, sjätte Imam och en avgudadyrkare. Diskussionen belyser Allahs status och belyser hur storartade de religiösa företrädarna som Allah satt på jorden.  Texten är på engelska men är väl värd att läsa. Argumenten som förs fram, är väl värda att använda i diskussioner med ateister också, tycker jag. Jag är lat de här dagarna, så orkade inte översätta, finns det problem med förståelsen, bara plinga mig 😛

    Jafar al Sadiq levde på 700 talet, så det är väl värd att ha det i åtanke.

    Before reading this whole Incedent kindly keep in mind that this incident
    took place 1400 yers ago when science was in very much infant stage and only
    rectly 2 centuries back all the below thories have been proved.. It’s
    Amazing !!!! Below are extracts from the book

    “The Great Muslim Scientist and Philosopher  *Imam Jafar Ibn Mohammed
    As-Sadiq (a. s.)* (Sixth successor after the Holy prophet [s.a.w])

    Translated and published by Kaukab Ali Mirza
    Publisher: Willowdale, Ont. : K.A. Mirza, 1996.
    ISBN: 0969949014   Edition: $6.00
    Second Edition Printed in 1997  275 pages.

    *INTRODUCTION*

    This book is a translation of “Maghze Mutafakkir Jehan Shia”, the famous
    Persian book, which has been published four times in Tehran, Iran. The
    Persian book is itself a translation from a French thesis published by The
    Research Committee of Strasbourg, France, about the contribution made by
    Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (A.S.) to science, philosophy, literature and irfan
    (gnosticism) .

    ‘Kaukab Ali Mirza’ did the English translation from Persian

    *Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (a. s.) and abu Shakir*

    Jafar as-Sadiq (A. S.) was one of the most patient and tolerant teachers of
    his time. He used to take his classes every day. After his lectures he would
    listen and reply to the objections of his critics. He had asked his critics,
    who attended his classes, not to interrupt him during his lectures. They
    were quite free to ask him any question or raise any objection after the
    classes were over.

    Once Abu Shakir, one of his opponents, said to him: “Would you allow me to
    say something and ask some questions?”

    “Yes, you can”, replied Imam Jafar as-Sadiq.

    Said Abu Shakir: “Is it not a myth that there is Allah? You want people to
    believe in a thing which does not exist. If there was Allah, we could have
    felt his existence through our senses. You may say that we can feel His
    presence by the help of our inner senses, but our inner senses also depend
    upon our five outer senses. We cannot conjure up an image of anything in
    which some of our senses were not involved. We cannot conjure up the picture
    of a person whom we have not met; recall to our memory his voice if we have
    not heard him and feel the touch of his hand by our inner senses if we have
    never taken his hand in our hand.”

    “You may say that we can perceive the presence of Allah by our intelligence
    and not through our inner or outer senses. But our intelligence also needs
    the assistance of our five outer senses, without which it cannot function.
    We cannot make any reasoning or come to any conclusion without the help of
    our senses.

    By your imagination you have created a being, which is of your own image.
    Since you see, talk, hear, work and rest, He also does exactly what you do.”

    “You do not show Him to anyone. To maintain your hold on the people you say
    that He cannot be seen. You also say that He was not born from the womb of a
    woman. He does not procreate and that He would not die. I have heard that
    there is an idol in India, which is hidden behind a curtain and is not
    allowed to be seen by the Hindu devotees. The custodians of the idol say
    that it is out of mercy that their god does not appear before them, because
    whoever casts his eyes on it, would instantly die.”

    “Your Allah is also like the veiled god of the Hindus. It is out of His
    mercy that He does not appear before us. If he does, we shall surely die.
    You say that the universe was created by Allah, who did not talk to anyone,
    except to the Prophet of Islam. As a matter of fact the universe came by
    itself. Does anyone create the grass, which grows in the field? Does it not
    grow and get green by itself? Does anyone create the ants and the
    mosquitoes? Do they not come out by themselves?”

    “I must tell you, who claims to be a scholar and the successor of the
    Prophet, that among all the stories, which circulate among the people, none
    is more absurd and baseless than the story of Allah, who cannot be seen.
    There are many baseless stories, but they, at least, depict real life and
    present before us the people and personalities, who may themselves be
    fictitious, but their acts and deeds are like those of real human beings. We
    can see them. They eat, they drink, they talk, they sleep and they love.
    When we read these fictitious stories, we enjoy them. We know that they are
    false, but we see in them the faces of men and women, who are like us. The
    people mentioned in the stories might not have existed, but our common sense
    accepts existence of such people in the world. However, when we cannot see,
    feel or touch your Allah, our logic and reasoning, which depend upon our
    senses, do not accept his existence.”

    “l know that some people, who have been deceived by you, believe in your
    invisible Allah, but you cannot deceive me and make me believe in Him. I
    worship God, who is made of wood and stone. Although my God does not talk,
    but I can see him with my eyes and touch him with my hands.”

    “You say that the God whom I have made from my own hands is not worthy of
    being worshipped, while you ask the people to worship Allah, you have
    created by your imagination. You deceive innocent people by saying that your
    imaginary Allah has created the universe, but I do not deceive anyone. No
    one created the universe. There was no need of any god to create it. It came
    by itself. God cannot create anything. He is himself our creation. I created
    him by my hand and you by your imagination.”

    Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (A. S.) did not say a word during the long tirade of Abu
    Shakir. Sometimes his students, who were present, wanted to intervene but he
    asked them to remain quiet. When Abu Shakir stopped his lengthy discourse,
    the Imam asked him, if he had anything more to say.

    Retorted Abu Shakir: “By introducing your invisible Allah to the people, you
    want to acquire wealth and position and have a respectable, comfortable and
    luxurious life. These are my last words. I do not want to say anything
    more.”

    Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (A. S.) said: “l would like to start with the last part
    of your speech. Your accusations that I want money, position and a
    comfortable life would have been justified if I was living like a caliph.
    You have seen today that I have eaten a few morsels of bread only and
    nothing else. I invite you to my house to see for yourself what I will have
    for dinner and how I live.”

    “Abu Shakir, if I wanted to acquire wealth and have a good life, as you say,
    I was not obliged to teach and preach to get rich. I would have earned money
    and got rich by my knowledge of chemistry. Another way to get rich was to do
    business. I have more knowledge’ about foreign markets than any merchant in
    Medina. I know what goods are produced in different countries and where to
    sell them for profit. I also know how to bring them here to reduce the cost
    of transport. Our merchants import goods only from Syria, Iraq, Egypt and
    some other Arab countries. They do not know what goods are available in
    Isphahan, Rasht and Rome, otherwise they would have imported them and sold
    them with profit.”

    “Abu Shakir, you have said that I ask the people to worship Allah to deceive
    them and to get rich. I must tell you that I have never taken anything from
    anyone, except some fruits as presents. One of my friends sends to me every
    year fresh dates from his garden and another some pomegranates from Taif. I
    accept these presents so that they may not get offended.”

    “I have heard, O Abu Shakir, that your father was a pearl merchant. Perhaps
    you may have some knowledge about pearls. But I know all about pearls and
    precious stones. I can also appraise their market value. If I wanted to get
    rich I would have worked as a jeweller. Can you test and recognise a
    precious stone? Do you know how many kinds of rubies and emeralds there are
    in the world?”

    “I know nothing about them”, replied Abu Shakir.

    “Do you know how many kinds of diamonds there are and what colours they
    have?” asked Imam Jafar as-Sadiq.

    “I do not know”, replied Abu Shakir.

    Imam Jafar as-Sadiq said: “I am not a jeweller, but I know all about the
    pearls and precious stones. I also know where they come from. All jewellers
    must know about gems, what I know, but few of them know their sources.”

    “Do you know what makes a diamond shine?”

    “I never was a diamond merchant, nor was my father. How can I know why
    diamonds shine?; replied Abu Shakir.

    Said the Imam: “Diamonds are obtained from the beds of rivers and streams.
    Rough diamonds are cut by experts. This is the cut of a diamond, which gives
    it its brilliance. Those who are experts in cutting diamonds are trained
    from the childhood in the profession of their fathers and forefathers.
    Cutting a diamond is a very delicate and difficult art. A diamond is cut
    only by a diamond.”

    “Abu Shakir, I have said all this simply to show to you that if I wanted to
    accumulate wealth, I could have done so by making use of my knowledge about
    jewels. I have replied to your accusations and now I shall deal with your
    objections.”

    “Abu Shakir, you have said that I have fabricated stories and ask the people
    to worship Allah, who cannot be seen. You refuse to acknowledge existence of
    Allah, because He cannot be seen. Can you see inside your own body?”

    Replied Abu Shakir: “No, I cannot.”

    Imam Jafar as-Sadiq said: “If you could have seen what is inside you, you
    would not have said that you do not believe in Allah, who cannot be seen.”

    Abu Shakir asked: “What is the relationship between seeing within one’s own
    body and the existence of your unseen Allah?”

    Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (A. S.) replied: “You have said just now that a thing,
    which cannot be seen, touched, tasted or heard, does not exist.”

    Abu Shakir said: “Yes, I have said that and I believe it is true.”

    Jafar as-Sadiq asked: “Do you hear the sound of the movement of blood in
    your body?”

    Said Abu Shakir: “No, I do not. But does blood move in the body?

    Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (A. S.) said: “Yes, it does. It makes a full circuit of
    your body. If the circulation of blood stops for a few minutes you will
    die.”

    Abu Shakir said: “I cannot believe that blood circulates in the body.”

    Imam Jafar as-Sadiq said: “It is your ignorance, which does not let you
    believe that your blood circulates in your body, and the same ignorance does
    not let you believe in the existence of Allah, Who cannot be seen.”

    Then the Imam asked Abu Shakir whether he has seen the tiny living beings,
    which Allah has created in his body.

    Jafar as-Sadiq continued: “It is because of these small creatures and their
    wonderful work that you are kept alive. They are so small that you cannot
    see them. Since you are a slave of your senses, you do not know about their
    existence. If you increase your knowledge and decrease your ignorance, you
    will come to know that these small beings in your body are as large in
    number as the particles of sand in the desert. These small creatures are
    born in your body, multiply in your body, work in your body and die in your
    body. But you never see them, touch them, taste them or hear them in your
    life time.”

    “It is true that one who knows himself knows his Allah. If you had known
    yourself and had the knowledge of what is going on inside your body, you
    would not have said that you do not believe in Allah, without seeing Him.”

    Pointing his finger to a huge stone he said: “Abu Shakir, do you see the
    stone, which is in the foot of that portico? To you it seems lifeless and
    motionless, because you do not see the brisk motion, which is inside the
    stone. Again it is lack of knowledge or your ignorance, which would not let
    you believe that there is motion inside the stone. The time will come when
    the learned people would see the motion which is in the stone.”

    Continued the Imam: “Abu Shakir, you have said that everything in the
    universe came by itself and has no Creator. You think that the grass in the
    field grows and gets green by itself. You must know that the grass cannot
    grow without seeds and seeds would not germinate without moisture in the
    soil and there would be no moisture if no rain falls. The rain does not fall
    by itself. First the water vapours rise and gather above in the atmosphere
    in the form of clouds. The winds bring the clouds. Then the water vapours
    condense and fall down as rain drops. The rain must also fall at the right
    time, otherwise no grass will grow and become green. Take the seeds of ten
    kinds of herbs and put them in a closed jar, which has sufficient water, but
    no air. Would they germinate? No, in addition to water, seeds need air also.
    It is possible to grow grass, herbs and fruits in hot houses, when it is
    very cold, provided there is sufficient air. Without the presence of air no
    grass will gr! ow in the fields and get green. If there is no air, all
    plants and animals, including human beings, would die.”

    “Abu Shakir, do you see the air, on which your very existence depends. You
    only feel it when it moves. Can you refuse to believe in the existence of
    air? Can you deny that to grow and get green the grass needs many things
    like seeds, soil, water, air, a suitable climate and above all a strong
    managing power, which may co-ordinate the action of these different
    elements. That Managing and Co-ordinating Power is Allah.”

    “You say that everything comes by itself because you are not a scientist. No
    scientist would ever say that. All scientists and all scholars believe in
    the existence of a creator, albeit, they may call Him by different names.
    Even those, who do not believe in Allah, believe in a Creative Force.”

    “Abu Shakir, it is not because of one’s knowledge, but it is due to his
    ignorance that he does not believe in Allah. When a wise man thinks of
    himself, he finds that his own body needs a controller so that all its
    organs and systems may function properly. He then realises that this vast
    universe also needs a controller or supervisor so that it may run smoothly.”

    “You said just now that both of us create our own gods – you by your hands
    and I by my imagination. But there is a big difference between your god and
    my Allah. Your god did not exist before you made him out of wood or stone,
    but my Allah was there before I could think about Him. I do not create my
    Allah by my hands or by my brain. What I do is to know Him better and think
    of His Greatness. When you see a mountain you try to know more about it. It
    is not creating the mountain by imagination. That mountain was there before
    you saw it and it would be there when you are gone.”

    ‘You cannot know much about the mountain because of your limited knowledge.
    The more your knowledge grows, the more you will learn about it. It is
    impossible for you to find out when and how that mountain came into being
    and when it would disappear. You cannot find out what minerals are there
    inside or underneath the mountain and what is their benefit to mankind.”

    “Do you know that the stones, out of which you make your idols came into
    being thousands of years ago and shall exist for thousands of years more.
    These stones have come here from a distant place. They could travel that
    long journey because different parts of the earth are always moving, but
    this movement is so slow that you do not feel it. There is nothing in the
    universe, which is not in motion. Rest or motionlessness is meaningless. We
    are not at rest even when we are sleeping. We are in motion because the
    earth is in motion. Besides, we have a motion inside our own bodies.”

    “Abu Shakir, if you had any knowledge about the piece of stone, out of which
    you carve an idol, you would not have denied the existence of Allah and said
    that I have created Him by my imagination. You do not know what a stone is
    and how it came into being. Today you can handle it as you like and cut it
    into any shape or form, but there was a time when it was in liquid state.
    Gradually it cooled down and Allah solidified it. In the beginning it was
    quite brittle and would have broken into pieces in your hand like a piece of
    glass.”

    Asked Abu Shakir: “Was it in a liquid condition before?”

    “Yes, it was”, replied Jafar asSadiq (A. S.)

    Abu Shakir burst into a peal of laughter. One of the students of Jafar
    as-Sadiq got angry and was about to say something when he was stopped by his
    teacher.

    Abu Shakir said: “I am laughing because you say that the stones are made of
    water.”

    Jafar as-Sadiq (A. S.) replied: “I did not say that the stones are made of
    water. What I had said was that in the beginning they were in a liquid
    state.”

    Abu Shakir said: “What difference does it make. The liquid and water are the
    same things.”

    Imam Jafar as-Sadiq replied: “There are many liquids which are not water.
    Milk and vinegar are liquids, but they are not water, although they have a
    water content in them. In the beginning the stones were liquid like water
    and they flowed like water. Gradually they cooled down and became hard so
    that you could cut them and make them into idols. The same hard stones will
    turn into liquid, if they are heated.”

    Said Abu Shakir: “When I go home I will check the truth of your statement. I
    will put the stone in the fireplace and see if it turns into liquid or not.”

    Said the Imam: “You cannot liquefy stone in your fireplace. Can you liquefy
    a piece of iron at home? A very high temperature is required to turn solid
    stone into liquid.”

    “Do you realise how you could make the idols out of stones? It was Allah,
    who made the stones. It was He Who created you and gave you the hands with
    the unique fingers, which enabled you to handle tools and chisel out the
    idols from the stones. Again it was He who gave you power and intelligence,
    which you used in making the idols.”

    “Abu Shakir, do you think that the mountains are only heaps of stones? The
    Great Allah has created them to serve some very useful purpose. They were
    not created so that you may take stones and turn them into idols. Wherever
    there is a mountain there is flowing water. Rain and snow which fall on the
    mountain tops produce streams of fresh water. These streams combine together
    to form big rivers, which irrigate farms and fields. The people who live in
    the valleys, through which the rivers flow, are assured of constant supply
    of water. People who can afford it, go to the mountains during the summer
    season to escape the heat of the plains.”

    “The mountains work as a great bulwark and protect towns and villages, which
    are in their valleys from the devastation and destruction of hurricanes.
    Green mountains provide good grazing grounds for sheep. When scorching heat
    burns the pastures down in the plains and no fodder is left, the shepherds
    take their flocks of sheep to the mountains and stay there till the end of
    summer. Mountains are also habitats of birds and animals, some of which are
    a good source of food for those, who live there. Even the mountains, which
    are not green, are not without some use. If the people try, they may
    discover in them mines of metals and minerals which are useful for mankind.”

    “Abu Shakir, I am too small and too weak to create Allah with my brain. It
    is He, who has created my brain, so that I may think of Him and know Him –
    my Creator. He was there before I came into being and He would be there when
    I am no more. I do not mean that I would be totally destroyed. Nothing in
    the universe is totally destroyed. Everything is subject to change. It is
    only Allah, Who does not change.”

    “Abu Shakir, please tell me sincerely to whom will you turn for help when
    you are in trouble? Do you hope that the idol you carve out of stone can
    come to your succour? Can it cure you when you are sick; save you from
    mishaps and calamities; save you from starvation and help you pay your
    debts?”

    Abu Shakir replied: “I have no such expectations from the stone, but, I
    think there is something inside the stone, which will help me. Moreover, I
    cannot help worshipping it.”

    Imam Jafar as-Sadiq enquired: “What is inside the stone? Is it also stone?”

    “I do not know what it is. But it cannot help me if it is also stone,”
    replied Abu Shakir.

    Said Imam Jafar as-Sadiq: “Abu Shakir, what is inside the stone and is not
    stone and can help when you are in trouble is, Allah.”

    Abu Shakir pondered over the subject for a while and then said: “Is Allah,
    who cannot be seen, inside the stone?”

    The Imam replied: “He is everywhere.”

    Abu Shakir said: “I cannot believe that a thing may be everywhere but remain
    unseen.”

    The Imam said: “Do you know that the air is everywhere but cannot be seen?”

    Said Abu Shakir: “Although I cannot see the air, I can, at least, feel it
    when it moves. But I can neither see your Allah nor feel his presence.”

    Imam Jafar as-Sadiq said: “You do not feel the presence of air when it is
    not moving. The air is only a creation of Allah. He is everywhere, but you
    cannot see Him or feel His presence by your senses. You have admitted just
    now that although you do not see it, but your instinct or your soul tells
    you that there is something inside the stone, and is not the stone, which
    can help you. That something is Allah. Your instinct also tells you that you
    cannot live without Allah and without worshipping Him.”

    Abu Shakir said: “It is true. I cannot live without worshipping idols.”

    Said Imam Jafar as-Sadiq: “Do not say idols. Say Allah. It is He, Who is
    worthy of worship. just like you everyone is obliged to worship Him. One,
    who does not worship Allah has no guide and no guardian. He is just like
    one, who cannot see, cannot hear, cannot feel and cannot think. He does not
    know where to go and on whom to depend when in trouble. Worshipping Allah is
    a part of living. Every living being worships Him instinctively. Even the
    animals cannot live without worshipping Him. We cannot ask them and they
    cannot tell us that they worship Allah, but their well regulated and orderly
    life is sufficient proof that they worship Him.

    “I do not say that the animals believe in Allah and worship Him just as we
    do. But there is no doubt that they obey the laws made by their Creator
    faithfully, which means they worship Him. If they were not obedient to their
    Creator, they could not have such an orderly and regulated life.”

    “We see that just before the advent of spring the titmouse (a kind of small
    bird) always comes at the same time and sings, as if to give us the tiding
    of the new season. The itinerary of these migratory birds is so regulated
    and their schedule so fixed that even if the last days of winter are still
    cold, their arrival is not delayed for more than a few days. When Chilchila
    (a migratory bird) returns after covering a distance of thousands of miles,
    it builds its nest at the same place, where it had built it last spring. Was
    it possible for these small birds to have such a well organised life if they
    did not obey the laws of Allah and worship Him?”

    “Abu Shakir, even the plants obey the laws made by Allah faithfully and
    worship Him. Out of 150 species of plants, which are further divided into
    hundreds of sub-species you will not find even one plant, which has a
    disorganised and disorderly life.”

    “Abu Shakir, just like us the plants also do not see their Creator, but they
    worship Him by obeying His laws instinctively.”

    “I know that you will not accept, or perhaps you do not understand, what I
    say. A man must have sufficient knowledge to understand complicated
    problems.”

    “Abu Shakir, not only animals by their animal instinct and plants by their
    plant instinct obey Allah and worship Him, the lifeless and inanimate
    objects also, with whatever instinct they have, obey Allah and worship Him.
    If they did not worship Him, they would not have followed the laws made by
    Him. As a result, their atoms would have broken apart and they would have
    been destroyed.”

    “The light which comes from the sun also worships Allah by obeying his laws,
    which are very stringent and exact. It comes into being by the combination
    of two opposite forces. These forces also obey the laws of Allah and worship
    Him, otherwise they cannot produce light.”

    “Abu Shakir, if there was no Allah there would have been no universe and no
    you and me. The sentence, “There is no Allah’, is meaningless. The existence
    of Allah is a must. If attention of Allah is diverted, even for a moment
    from the affairs of the universe to something else, it would break up.
    Everything in the universe obeys His laws, which are permanent and eternal.
    Because of His absolute wisdom and knowledge, He could make such wonderful
    laws, which will last for ever. Each and every law, made by Him serves some
    special and useful purpose.”

    When the Imam concluded his discourse, Abu Shakir fell into a deep reverie
    as if he was greatly inspired.

    Imam Jafar as-Sadiq asked: “Do you now believe that Allah, who cannot be
    seen, does exist and what you worship is the unseen Allah?”

    Abu Shakir replied: “I am not yet convinced. I am in a quandary. I am full
    of doubts and misgivings about my faith and my convictions.”

    Jafar as-Sadiq remarked: “The doubt about idol worship is the beginning of
    the worship of Allah.”

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31 Responsesso far.

  1. Z skriver:

    Långt, men mycket bra.

  2. petersingerfanboy skriver:

    Imam Jafar as-Sadiq said: “It is your ignorance, which does not let you
    believe that your blood circulates in your body, and the same ignorance does
    not let you believe in the existence of Allah, Who cannot be seen.”

    Skillnaden är bara att blodets flöde och människans kropp går att studera, de är fysiska ting. Allah är inte. Vad som visas här är att en ignorant person försöker sätta dit en ännu mer ignorant person, inte särskilt övertygande.
    Som svar till imamamens uttalanden passar denna video bra:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/nonstampcollector?blend=1&ob=4&rclk=cti#p/u/22/IVbnciQYMiM

  3. Bahlool skriver:

    Lol ja att kalla någon från 700 talet ignorant visar på hög intelligens ;). Istället för att ta upp någon enstaka sak som du anser dig inte stämmer, borde du kanske koncentrera dig på vad han sa och vad han sa som man nu idag vet är sant, saker som ingen kunde känna till på 700 talet?

  4. petersingerfanboy skriver:

    Med dagens mått om hur naturen fungerar, så ja ignorans. Detta är inget farligt ord, alla är vi ignoranta inför det vi ännu inte vet. Menade bara att jag inte kunde finns några bra argument för Allah som skulle hålla idag.

  5. Bahlool skriver:

    Det är ett nedvärderande ord i det här sammanhanget då denna person anses vara Imam, en högtstående religiös ledare ättling till Profeten och vi vet ju hur det känns för oss muslimer att använda sådana begrepp på Profeten och de heliga Imamerna. 1400 års skillnad 😉

  6. petersingerfanboy skriver:

    Ok, det kan du tycka, vilket argument tycker du är bra mot ateism?

  7. Z skriver:

    Och så börjar det hela om på nytt med Peter.. Runt runt och runt går karusellen med dig.

  8. Bahlool skriver:

    peter i min värld, så finns ingen plats för ateismen, agnostiker kan jag förstå bättre, men ateister? Vi har haft denna diskussion ofta, du är en rätt smart kille, så det är inte intelligens som fattas dig. Du klankar ner på att det inte finns några bevis för Allah, samtidigt så följer du en tankeställning en tankevärld, som säger att Gud inte finns. Kalla dig agnostiker och vi kan ha lugn och ro 😉

  9. petersingerfanboy skriver:

    Vad är din definition av ateism? Jag har inga problem med att backa upp varför jag anser mig vara ateist och skulle hävda att detta inte är någon tankevärld (definition på tankevärld också). Jag beskriver gärna varför jag inte är agnostiker.
    Kan du nämna något ur texten som var goda argument för idag?

  10. Bahlool skriver:

    Olika förklaringar som ingen på den tiden kunde veta, är bra exempel men du menar alltså att du har bevis som klart säger att Gud inte finns?

  11. petersingerfanboy skriver:

    Vilken gud?

  12. Bahlool skriver:

    lol 😛 Ett högre väsen, skaparguden

  13. petersingerfanboy skriver:

    kan du definiera detta väsen? Var kommer det ifrån, vad består det av? Vad existerade innan?

  14. Bahlool skriver:

    Fanns inget innan, allt annat är skapat, förutom detta ”väsen”. Jag som shiamuslim tror att det är en kraft, en Gud som inte har någon släkting, inte någon kropp i likhet med vad kristna säger, att han skapade oss till sin avbild, vissa sunniter menar att han har armar och ben. Spelar utseendet roll för dig? Det var väl inte det vi diskuterade 😉

  15. petersingerfanboy skriver:

    Jo, nog spelar det en roll att kunna definiera vad du menar existerar. Jag försöker se vad det är som gör allah särskild från resten av alla gudar. Något måste väl ha funnits innan allah? Möjligheten finns ju även om du tror på gud. Allah kanske ljuger, eller inte vet om vad som existerade innan sin existens.

  16. Bahlool skriver:

    Nja, enligt shiaislam så är del av vår aqeedah, del av vår tro, att Allah är adl, rättvis. En rättvis Gud ljuger inte. Det som särskiljer är just att de flesta tror på att det finns en gud, men även om folk har olika syn på Allah, så säger han ju själv att han är samma Gud som kom till judar och kristna, finns grupperingar inom shia som anser att han är samma gud som kom till hinduer och buddhister..

  17. petersingerfanboy skriver:

    är allah också barmhärtig?

  18. Bahlool skriver:

    Japp Allah är barmhärtig. Vart försöker du leda mig peter 😉

  19. petersingerfanboy skriver:

    Är inte dessa två motsägelser? Om allah är oändligt barmhärtig kan han/hon/det väl inte också vara rättvis?

  20. Bahlool skriver:

    Varför då ? Rättvis domare, men barmhärtig som förlåter många saker

  21. petersingerfanboy skriver:

    Hur fungerar den rättvisan? Vilka saker förlåter egentligen allah? Enligt dig kan vad som helst förlåtas utom ateism av allah. Hur blir man förlåten? Och om Allah är den MEST/oändliga barmhärtiga, betyder inte det att även ateism förlåts? Vilket etiskt rättesnöre är detta?

  22. Bahlool skriver:

    Så du menar en barmhärtig person, ska förlåta allting alla brott, alla svek allting? Då är man inte barmhärtig utan bara dum. Allah förlåter alla synder, förutom ateismen, så när han vill förlåta mig för att jag gjort något dumt någon enstaka gång, så gör han, men om jag gång på gång på gång gör om saken, utan att vilja förbättra mig eller göra rätt för mig, då kommer jag knappast få hans förlåtelse, sen är det ju upp till honom inte till mig.
    Så du ser inte skillnad på barmhärtighet som förlåter, hjälper, stödjer och en grym Gud, som beskrivs bland andra religioner?

  23. petersingerfanboy skriver:

    Att visa barmhärtighet betyder att ge ett lägre straff än brottet ursprungligen ger. Detta är ju inte konsekvent om absolut rättvisa råder. På vilket sätt är allah annorlunda från en egenmäktig diktator?

    Varför är ateism värre än mord för allah?
    För mig som ser religion som skapat av människor är detta tydligt tecken på att man vill hålla folk kvar inom religionen. Kan man hota både med världsliga OCH efter-värdsliga straff lyckas man antagligen hålla kvar rätt många…
    Vilken är din förklaring?

  24. Bahlool skriver:

    Peter om Allah anses vara diktator spelar mig ingen roll, diktator i urspruglig mening var en ensam maktfullkomlig ledare, som valdes på kort tid, men här har vi en allsmäktig Gud, som inte har någon jämlike. hade han varit vår jämlike, en människa som du och jag, så hade jag väl kunnat anse honom vara en diktator ur negativ synvinkel. Varför ska Allah visa barmhärtighet mot den som inte tror på honom? Mord kan ske utan grund, kan ske i stridens, det kan ske oförvållat, men ateistiska tankar har du kommit till beroende på två anledningar. 1 Du är envis i din dumhet och ditt hat eller 2 du har kommit fram det efter att ha täknt på saken rätt grundligt, båda två val är felaktiga och leder dig till fördärvet. Varför ska Han vara barmhärtig mot dig när du valt denna väg? Även mord, kommer straffas, men det är upp till Honom att bestämma sig för ifall han ska ge dig ett lite mildare straff eller ej. Där kommer barmhärtigheten in .
    Vad tjänar jag på att du eller jag hålls kvar i religionen? Jag bryr mig inte om du tror på Allah eller tomten, jag har aldrig varit mkt för mission.

  25. Z skriver:

    Som Musa en gång sa om dig Peter, det är som att åka karusell med dig.. Samma sak, om och om igen..

  26. petersingerfanboy skriver:

    ”en ensam maktfullkomlig ledare, som valdes på kort tid”.
    Hm.. Stämmer rätt bra in på kungar, profeter och moder theresa mfl.
    Skillnaden var väl att de snarare hävdade att de jobbade för ”han däruppe”.
    Mina frågor kring allahs regler är rent retoriska, det är tydligt för mig att dessa existerar på grund av ovanstående.

    Vad du tjänar, tja, jag vet inte men vad tjänar vi på att få andra att tycka som vi? Många fördelar ofta skulle jag säga. Och som jag skrev ovan är rädsla ett mycket starkt vapen i kampen om makt, det har vi sett både hos ateister och religiösa.

  27. petersingerfanboy skriver:

    z: och religionens virvel är det inte?

  28. Bahlool skriver:

    Peter jag tjänar inget på att få dig att tänka som mig, jag ser att du följt mig rätt länge och du borde veta att jag inte värst bryr mig om folk håller med mig eller inte, men om man är blåst eller dum och inte vill ta till sig fakta så avskyr jag det, jag vet att du inte är dum eller ointelligent därför jag njuter av våra samtal 😉
    Men vad tjänar jag på att du ska tro som jag eller som muslimer? Jag får inga pengar för det, jag tror inte heller på att tvinga dig att tro som jag, jag har ofta erbjudit människor att jag ska ge dem den information de söker efter (jag är shia de vill vara sunni så jag fixaxe det åt dem)

  29. husse skriver:

    hur kan jag hitta denna text på nätet?

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